Get to the point man! You are singing to the choir! It may be buried in the minutiae of your essay, but what exactly should the Democrats do to counter all of Trump's lying??? How about a daily press conference where they state all the lies that Trump has made in the last 24 hours and then counter it with the actual truth? You know like the daily press conference that Johnson gives and basically lies without challenge? Except in this case the truth would be stated. As I said, get to the point prior to 15 paragraphs in...
Yes. A daily press conference with graphics showing, e.g., Lies Told Yesterday, Lies This Year, etc. Delivered by someone with personality, as opposed to Chuck Schumer. And yes to Brian's point that Dems will not work with Trump or the GOP on ANYTHING as long as the lies continue. Which they will.
I remember when Paul Ryan told those shocking lies about Medicare in particular. I got so mad I made a bumper sticker with he and Romney's faces on it and "The Audacity of Mendacity" on it. 😆
A daily snoozefest press conference? That feels awfully 2002. Public statements need to be re-tweetable and TikTok-able. That doesn’t say “press conference” to me.
And to what end is it worth creating a daily lie tally? Seems like that’s more just petulant fuming from supine Dems.
Brian’s ideas are on the money: don’t engage point-by-point. Embrace conflict on issues and stake out an adverbial position specifically premised on his being a liar.
Well that very well may be, but the Dems are either too wimpy or not sophisticated enough to carry out Brian's suggestions. Nor will anyone notice. The only way to deal with a bully is to kick him in the balls on a daily basis. That may be petty and petulant, but unfortunately, that's what the American public craves at the moment...
The normalization of lying is both a short-term and a long-term threat to democratic governance. Vance is a great big liar too. Consistently calling out the lies now, as tiresome as it may feel, is crucial. It lays the foundation for a future in which it’s not ok for politicians to lie.
I am not sure this will work. If I get tired of calling out lies on a daily basis so will my audience. There is a need to focus on the most important and/or most ridiculous and/or most cruel lies. I think the ridiculous ones could be particularly effective. The late night comedians do some of that work quite well and the party could learn from them (if only that it is possible to have some courage in this situation).
Agreed. The fact checking seems to energize the liars because that’s part of the way fascists exert a hold over their followers. But I think Brian’s concerned that Dems are giving up on this. Need to find a new way — like more directly confronting the liars for lying (as opposed to “actually, that’s not true …”).
Funny to be getting to this conclusion now (or at least hoping so) when this should have been the play since 2015. When Trump 1 started I was furious at media outlets and liberal pundits for not starting every discussion of politics by making everyone at the table acknowledge that Trump is a pathological liar. They didn't. And here we are.
All presidents from Jefferson through Taft delivered their State of the Union in writing, until Wilson reestablished doing it as a speech to Congress. There's no constitutional reason why we couldn't return to the written format.
I think the fact that we are still reading / hearing about how weak most Dems look in response to most thing Trump/GOP doesn’t bode well for them finally figuring out what they need (or needed a decade ago) to do to show they’re willing to fight back against the lies, corruption, cruelty, and general destruction of democracy.
Again, the fear of offending a few voters leaves them looking worse in a majority of voters eyes.
I’m not sure what else needs to happen to get them to ‘meet the moment’. It remains depressing & infuriating.
My thought is that a concerted, unified ad campaign, using TV, radio, internet, etc, and the one thing said would be 'TRUMP LIES ABOUT EVERYTHING!' Over and over, just that one message. You cannot go a day without hearing or seeing it. For months and years. As long as needed.
We had all better hope that Dem/Ind hatred of Trump & Co. is greater and more motivating than the deflating disgust with the flaccid response of Congressional Democrats (with some notable exceptions). Their inability as a group to use fully the banquet being served to them on a silver platter is utterly disqualifying, but they are the only assholes we have at the moment. Of course, we have a year to try to change that.... Not winning the midterms is not an option.
Trump is lying so successfully because he doesn't lie, he bullshits. He has no concept of what "truth" means. His world is populated by people who bullshit and the trick is that the most shameless bullshitter ends up winning. Fact checking Trump is a category error. I am not sure how best to fight this but we better find a way quickly. Not taking insults lying down would be a start. And a large percentage of his "lies" are insulting.
It isn't just Hakeem, Chuck or 'Democrats' lack of energy and persistence attacking Trump's compulsive lying that's hurting the D Party brand and efforts to expose Trump's endless scams and destruction of decency & the welfare of the American people....The mainstream media struggles to respond effectively and critically to Trump's endless lying and misinformation. The MSM tends to focus their reporting on the few things he says that are tangentially connected to reality. So for example, when Trump spews his lies and salesmanship about the 'golden age of America's renaissance' and touts his 'never before' accomplishments since taking office, Bloomberg, CNN and even the NY Times will report that 'Economists agree that the underlying US economy is strong and growing', and they won't necessarily state how objective measures of economic performance show that inflation, job creation, the COL, business activity & profitability, government services and finances have ALL worsened under Trump 2.0--and that the full impact & worst aspects of Trump's policies are to be felt in the months and years to come. Moreover, the MSM tends to be surprisingly uncritical and accepting of whatever 'deal' or big investment commitment Trump claims to have secured from foreign leaders and companies. The MSM doesn't appear to have learned much from the empty promises and never realized 'deals' Trump announced with great fanfare during his first term in office--such as the illusory Foxconn investment and the China trade deals (and there were many others).
The ‘MSM’ was so desperate to be seen as non-partisan that many got cowed, by the GOP screaming that simply stating facts was anti- conservative, into either sanewashing all things GOP or both sidesing their coverage.
Now, most of the media, as well as other mediums where people get their ‘news’ is controlled by the right or right aligned billionaires so it’s likely to get worse.
We MUST get rid of the old pols in Congress! The Dems have to bring on the young folks led by AOC (38 yrs old). They know how to deal with Trump because they don't have any rose colored glasses on about "the good old days" of Congress. One thing Dems should do right now is consistently hit Trump by showing what he was before he was packaged for The Apprentice. I just heard about a reporter Wayne Barrett for the Village Voice who pounded hard at Trump back in the day. I'm going to look for those articles. Here's a link about him: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/wayne-barrett-obituary-reporter-village-voice-trump-first-214669/
We have three more years of this Trump presidency and if he has his crooked way, we may be subject to more lying, grifting, and running the USA like his own personal toy. The idea is appalling. I agree, but Democratic members of Congress need to step up oppose him and his cohorts in meaningful ways the show strength and cohesiveness.
I agree with Albrecht Zumbrunn that fact checking Trump is a category error. Trump doesn’t “lie,” rather, he doesn’t distinguish between truth and falsity. There are various reasons for this, including that, as Mr. Zumbrunn notes, he’s a bullshitter (in the formal sense of that term). Also, he’s deeply ignorant of the world; in his arrested state of psychological development, he remains three years old, and so the external world exists only as that from which his needs are met. And, he’s senescent.
So I believe it absolutely wrong to focus on trying to keep up with, call out and fact-check his lies. And, worse, to react with “outrage.” Trump provoking the libs is just what MAGA pays for. It makes Trump look strong or, an adjective favored by the MSM, “brash.” The Democrats pronounce Trump to be, not someone who lies and so can’t be trusted, but someone whose words have no meaning because he’s a damaged and doddering old fool who doesn’t know what he’s saying. Propagate the image of Trump as weak, pathetic, like a small child or someone in the depths of senility, who when he speaks gets an indulgent smile, a pat on the head and a tuck into bed, before the adults return to conversation.
The advantages of this are many. The burden and futility of fact-checking are gone. The mantle of weakness is transferred onto Trump, and even moreso onto GOP leaders in thrall to this small, steaming putrescence. By having his non-existence – that which his every act has sought to wall off from his consciousness – wash over him as the judgment of the world, Trump is provoked only to redouble his thrashing incoherence. Democrats would refuse to work with him on anything, not because he “might” go back on his “word,” but because he is not competent to carry out his affairs (“is there a power of attorney in the house?”). GOP lockstep is even more ridiculous when it is following the croaked commands of an incoherent relic. And best of all – the description is accurate. “Oh the web we weave” is avoided: when Democratic words follow from a true picture, they are coherent and consistent, and carry the power of their sincerity.
And, a much stronger place from which to badger the media for their normalizing and sanewashing. Not just "You should fact-check more" but "Is it your job to disguise Trump's unfitness by manufacturing coherence?" or even "Why are you covering Trump at all? Cover those who've bought him."
Trump doesn't use words the way Democrats use them. Newsom's Press Office has only fairly recently begun to use words the way Trump does - and it hilariously points out the stupidity of Trump's World Wrestling persona.
It strikes me as counter-productive to address Trump's lies in any rational way. Words are "weak," action is powerful. Dems should be cataloging the illegal, corrupt and unprincipled actions of Trump and his Administration, they should be talking about this stuff all the time and calling out BY NAME the sycophants in Congress who are enabling this erosion of democracy.
By reacting to Trump in any way democrats might fall into the "Trump Derangement Syndrome" territory in eyes of swing voters. Most democrats do not possess the skillset to thrive in current media ecosystem. They might be talented lawmakers and genuine statesman dedicated to finding bipartisan compromises, but to visibly be against the president and then handle the situation arising from it is something different. Therefore, the best course of action for many of them is to not do anything. In other words: to be as invisible as possible.
Think about the ways federal elected politicians interact with their swing voter constituents. Most perusable Americans do not know how the republics works, who is their senator or house of congress member. They elect them based on general vibes coming from national situation, the current reputation of their party and effects of campaign the politician did. Now, what happens if a politician tries to oppose Trump, or does something noteworthy? Memes can be generated from it. A single meme pushed to the X feed of swing voter might be enough to persuade a swing voter. Therefore, for most politicians (as opposed to your Vances or AOCs) the best way to survive is to be as stealthy as possible. Swing voters hate politicians. The less you show yourself politicking, the better your situation is.
So whatever a Democrat does will become meme fodder on X and doing nothing is immune to this. Yet a Republican can oppose in the most abrasive and partisan manner a Democratic president and it never seems to hurt them and often helps them. Uh huh.
Because democrats and republicans represent different parts of american society. Every time Republican opposes a democrats, he it sticking it to the elites and being here for the little guy. When democrat does it, it´s elitism, classism and punching down.
Your suggestion, is essentially, to do nothing because bad things can happen. This is playing defense in the extreme. It is a defeatist posture conveying complete lack of confidence in one’s agency. It can only result in the perception of weakness. The Democrats suffer enough already from being seen as weak.
As for the Democrats representing the elites a recent Strength in Numbers/Verasight poll run by a pretty sharp pollster, Elliott Morris, rates Republicans as more elitist than Democrats among the general public and independents by healthy margins (14 and 15% with a margin of error of 2.5%).
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Democrats suffer from being seen as weak, but they would suffer more if they were seen as anti-american, elitist, corrupt or malicious. Given the personalities the party has to work with, current strategy seems good enough. There is a chance voters will get bored and annoyed with trump.
As to "representing the elites" according to the poll, you have to take into account that currently Republicans are actively hated by great part of electorate, hated more than the democrats. When somebody is hated, polled people temporarily assign negative traits to hated party, even if in wider sense given issue is still "owned" by the party. Example of that was seeing republicans as "better on healthcare" before the 2024 elections. Of course voters knew that they would get better healthcare results with a democrat government, but they hated them so much that some reported republicans as being better at this. There was also the smaller issue of self-persuasion, whereas people would temporarily assumed Trump will be as good as democrats on healthcare so that they don't feel as bad when voting for him. In any case, the underlying political logic of healthcare issue did not change, and after the Trump enamoration period, polling of this issue flipped again.
"Representing the elites" is analogous issue. There is a temporary polling inversion of this issue coming from Trump unpopularity, but the underlying issue positioning comes from wider set of choices and identities that firmly anchor democrats as the party of the elite.
Get to the point man! You are singing to the choir! It may be buried in the minutiae of your essay, but what exactly should the Democrats do to counter all of Trump's lying??? How about a daily press conference where they state all the lies that Trump has made in the last 24 hours and then counter it with the actual truth? You know like the daily press conference that Johnson gives and basically lies without challenge? Except in this case the truth would be stated. As I said, get to the point prior to 15 paragraphs in...
Yes. A daily press conference with graphics showing, e.g., Lies Told Yesterday, Lies This Year, etc. Delivered by someone with personality, as opposed to Chuck Schumer. And yes to Brian's point that Dems will not work with Trump or the GOP on ANYTHING as long as the lies continue. Which they will.
I remember when Paul Ryan told those shocking lies about Medicare in particular. I got so mad I made a bumper sticker with he and Romney's faces on it and "The Audacity of Mendacity" on it. 😆
A daily snoozefest press conference? That feels awfully 2002. Public statements need to be re-tweetable and TikTok-able. That doesn’t say “press conference” to me.
And to what end is it worth creating a daily lie tally? Seems like that’s more just petulant fuming from supine Dems.
Brian’s ideas are on the money: don’t engage point-by-point. Embrace conflict on issues and stake out an adverbial position specifically premised on his being a liar.
Well that very well may be, but the Dems are either too wimpy or not sophisticated enough to carry out Brian's suggestions. Nor will anyone notice. The only way to deal with a bully is to kick him in the balls on a daily basis. That may be petty and petulant, but unfortunately, that's what the American public craves at the moment...
The normalization of lying is both a short-term and a long-term threat to democratic governance. Vance is a great big liar too. Consistently calling out the lies now, as tiresome as it may feel, is crucial. It lays the foundation for a future in which it’s not ok for politicians to lie.
I am not sure this will work. If I get tired of calling out lies on a daily basis so will my audience. There is a need to focus on the most important and/or most ridiculous and/or most cruel lies. I think the ridiculous ones could be particularly effective. The late night comedians do some of that work quite well and the party could learn from them (if only that it is possible to have some courage in this situation).
Agreed. The fact checking seems to energize the liars because that’s part of the way fascists exert a hold over their followers. But I think Brian’s concerned that Dems are giving up on this. Need to find a new way — like more directly confronting the liars for lying (as opposed to “actually, that’s not true …”).
Possibly the worst thing Nancy Pelosi ever did aside from defending stock trading was to anoint Hakeem Jeffries. Now we have to get rid of him.
Pelosi and the rest of her team’s political careers exceeded their sell-by dates a decade ago.
Funny to be getting to this conclusion now (or at least hoping so) when this should have been the play since 2015. When Trump 1 started I was furious at media outlets and liberal pundits for not starting every discussion of politics by making everyone at the table acknowledge that Trump is a pathological liar. They didn't. And here we are.
All presidents from Jefferson through Taft delivered their State of the Union in writing, until Wilson reestablished doing it as a speech to Congress. There's no constitutional reason why we couldn't return to the written format.
I think the fact that we are still reading / hearing about how weak most Dems look in response to most thing Trump/GOP doesn’t bode well for them finally figuring out what they need (or needed a decade ago) to do to show they’re willing to fight back against the lies, corruption, cruelty, and general destruction of democracy.
Again, the fear of offending a few voters leaves them looking worse in a majority of voters eyes.
I’m not sure what else needs to happen to get them to ‘meet the moment’. It remains depressing & infuriating.
My thought is that a concerted, unified ad campaign, using TV, radio, internet, etc, and the one thing said would be 'TRUMP LIES ABOUT EVERYTHING!' Over and over, just that one message. You cannot go a day without hearing or seeing it. For months and years. As long as needed.
Spend the cash. Save the country.
The person you’re actually looking for is Jasmine Crockett.
The way she handled her 5 minutes with Bondi is what you mean.
She should have done the SOTU response in the same mannner.
We had all better hope that Dem/Ind hatred of Trump & Co. is greater and more motivating than the deflating disgust with the flaccid response of Congressional Democrats (with some notable exceptions). Their inability as a group to use fully the banquet being served to them on a silver platter is utterly disqualifying, but they are the only assholes we have at the moment. Of course, we have a year to try to change that.... Not winning the midterms is not an option.
*Ok, not a year...actually more like 8 months.
Trump is lying so successfully because he doesn't lie, he bullshits. He has no concept of what "truth" means. His world is populated by people who bullshit and the trick is that the most shameless bullshitter ends up winning. Fact checking Trump is a category error. I am not sure how best to fight this but we better find a way quickly. Not taking insults lying down would be a start. And a large percentage of his "lies" are insulting.
It isn't just Hakeem, Chuck or 'Democrats' lack of energy and persistence attacking Trump's compulsive lying that's hurting the D Party brand and efforts to expose Trump's endless scams and destruction of decency & the welfare of the American people....The mainstream media struggles to respond effectively and critically to Trump's endless lying and misinformation. The MSM tends to focus their reporting on the few things he says that are tangentially connected to reality. So for example, when Trump spews his lies and salesmanship about the 'golden age of America's renaissance' and touts his 'never before' accomplishments since taking office, Bloomberg, CNN and even the NY Times will report that 'Economists agree that the underlying US economy is strong and growing', and they won't necessarily state how objective measures of economic performance show that inflation, job creation, the COL, business activity & profitability, government services and finances have ALL worsened under Trump 2.0--and that the full impact & worst aspects of Trump's policies are to be felt in the months and years to come. Moreover, the MSM tends to be surprisingly uncritical and accepting of whatever 'deal' or big investment commitment Trump claims to have secured from foreign leaders and companies. The MSM doesn't appear to have learned much from the empty promises and never realized 'deals' Trump announced with great fanfare during his first term in office--such as the illusory Foxconn investment and the China trade deals (and there were many others).
The ‘MSM’ was so desperate to be seen as non-partisan that many got cowed, by the GOP screaming that simply stating facts was anti- conservative, into either sanewashing all things GOP or both sidesing their coverage.
Now, most of the media, as well as other mediums where people get their ‘news’ is controlled by the right or right aligned billionaires so it’s likely to get worse.
This is very true. the Dems need to learn to call out the media as well.
We MUST get rid of the old pols in Congress! The Dems have to bring on the young folks led by AOC (38 yrs old). They know how to deal with Trump because they don't have any rose colored glasses on about "the good old days" of Congress. One thing Dems should do right now is consistently hit Trump by showing what he was before he was packaged for The Apprentice. I just heard about a reporter Wayne Barrett for the Village Voice who pounded hard at Trump back in the day. I'm going to look for those articles. Here's a link about him: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/wayne-barrett-obituary-reporter-village-voice-trump-first-214669/
We have three more years of this Trump presidency and if he has his crooked way, we may be subject to more lying, grifting, and running the USA like his own personal toy. The idea is appalling. I agree, but Democratic members of Congress need to step up oppose him and his cohorts in meaningful ways the show strength and cohesiveness.
I agree with Albrecht Zumbrunn that fact checking Trump is a category error. Trump doesn’t “lie,” rather, he doesn’t distinguish between truth and falsity. There are various reasons for this, including that, as Mr. Zumbrunn notes, he’s a bullshitter (in the formal sense of that term). Also, he’s deeply ignorant of the world; in his arrested state of psychological development, he remains three years old, and so the external world exists only as that from which his needs are met. And, he’s senescent.
So I believe it absolutely wrong to focus on trying to keep up with, call out and fact-check his lies. And, worse, to react with “outrage.” Trump provoking the libs is just what MAGA pays for. It makes Trump look strong or, an adjective favored by the MSM, “brash.” The Democrats pronounce Trump to be, not someone who lies and so can’t be trusted, but someone whose words have no meaning because he’s a damaged and doddering old fool who doesn’t know what he’s saying. Propagate the image of Trump as weak, pathetic, like a small child or someone in the depths of senility, who when he speaks gets an indulgent smile, a pat on the head and a tuck into bed, before the adults return to conversation.
The advantages of this are many. The burden and futility of fact-checking are gone. The mantle of weakness is transferred onto Trump, and even moreso onto GOP leaders in thrall to this small, steaming putrescence. By having his non-existence – that which his every act has sought to wall off from his consciousness – wash over him as the judgment of the world, Trump is provoked only to redouble his thrashing incoherence. Democrats would refuse to work with him on anything, not because he “might” go back on his “word,” but because he is not competent to carry out his affairs (“is there a power of attorney in the house?”). GOP lockstep is even more ridiculous when it is following the croaked commands of an incoherent relic. And best of all – the description is accurate. “Oh the web we weave” is avoided: when Democratic words follow from a true picture, they are coherent and consistent, and carry the power of their sincerity.
And, a much stronger place from which to badger the media for their normalizing and sanewashing. Not just "You should fact-check more" but "Is it your job to disguise Trump's unfitness by manufacturing coherence?" or even "Why are you covering Trump at all? Cover those who've bought him."
Trump doesn't use words the way Democrats use them. Newsom's Press Office has only fairly recently begun to use words the way Trump does - and it hilariously points out the stupidity of Trump's World Wrestling persona.
It strikes me as counter-productive to address Trump's lies in any rational way. Words are "weak," action is powerful. Dems should be cataloging the illegal, corrupt and unprincipled actions of Trump and his Administration, they should be talking about this stuff all the time and calling out BY NAME the sycophants in Congress who are enabling this erosion of democracy.
By reacting to Trump in any way democrats might fall into the "Trump Derangement Syndrome" territory in eyes of swing voters. Most democrats do not possess the skillset to thrive in current media ecosystem. They might be talented lawmakers and genuine statesman dedicated to finding bipartisan compromises, but to visibly be against the president and then handle the situation arising from it is something different. Therefore, the best course of action for many of them is to not do anything. In other words: to be as invisible as possible.
Think about the ways federal elected politicians interact with their swing voter constituents. Most perusable Americans do not know how the republics works, who is their senator or house of congress member. They elect them based on general vibes coming from national situation, the current reputation of their party and effects of campaign the politician did. Now, what happens if a politician tries to oppose Trump, or does something noteworthy? Memes can be generated from it. A single meme pushed to the X feed of swing voter might be enough to persuade a swing voter. Therefore, for most politicians (as opposed to your Vances or AOCs) the best way to survive is to be as stealthy as possible. Swing voters hate politicians. The less you show yourself politicking, the better your situation is.
So whatever a Democrat does will become meme fodder on X and doing nothing is immune to this. Yet a Republican can oppose in the most abrasive and partisan manner a Democratic president and it never seems to hurt them and often helps them. Uh huh.
Because democrats and republicans represent different parts of american society. Every time Republican opposes a democrats, he it sticking it to the elites and being here for the little guy. When democrat does it, it´s elitism, classism and punching down.
Your suggestion, is essentially, to do nothing because bad things can happen. This is playing defense in the extreme. It is a defeatist posture conveying complete lack of confidence in one’s agency. It can only result in the perception of weakness. The Democrats suffer enough already from being seen as weak.
As for the Democrats representing the elites a recent Strength in Numbers/Verasight poll run by a pretty sharp pollster, Elliott Morris, rates Republicans as more elitist than Democrats among the general public and independents by healthy margins (14 and 15% with a margin of error of 2.5%).
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Democrats suffer from being seen as weak, but they would suffer more if they were seen as anti-american, elitist, corrupt or malicious. Given the personalities the party has to work with, current strategy seems good enough. There is a chance voters will get bored and annoyed with trump.
As to "representing the elites" according to the poll, you have to take into account that currently Republicans are actively hated by great part of electorate, hated more than the democrats. When somebody is hated, polled people temporarily assign negative traits to hated party, even if in wider sense given issue is still "owned" by the party. Example of that was seeing republicans as "better on healthcare" before the 2024 elections. Of course voters knew that they would get better healthcare results with a democrat government, but they hated them so much that some reported republicans as being better at this. There was also the smaller issue of self-persuasion, whereas people would temporarily assumed Trump will be as good as democrats on healthcare so that they don't feel as bad when voting for him. In any case, the underlying political logic of healthcare issue did not change, and after the Trump enamoration period, polling of this issue flipped again.
"Representing the elites" is analogous issue. There is a temporary polling inversion of this issue coming from Trump unpopularity, but the underlying issue positioning comes from wider set of choices and identities that firmly anchor democrats as the party of the elite.
Seems to me that this is what many Dems have been doing and is a big reason why their overall approval ratings and so called brand are trash.